Radio traffic between Kobe Bryant's helicopter and controllers [repost from last night]

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 01/27/2020 at 11:09 • Filed to: wingspan, Planelopnik

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Way too early to speculate, but I’ll speculate anyway and say this sounds a lot like CFIT.

That last turn....

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 01/26/2020 at 22:47

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Special VFR in mountainous urban terrain nooooooooope

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 01/26/2020 at 22:48

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So that means he’s allowed to fly VFR in what are really IFR conditions?

RacinBob > ttyymmnn 01/26/2020 at 22:50

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Is the story everything was normal until something broke?

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 01/26/2020 at 22:51

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Answered my own question

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > ttyymmnn 01/26/2020 at 22:51

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I have flown into that area many times. There is a lot of terrain in the way. 1400 is way to low. 

ttyymmnn > RacinBob 01/26/2020 at 22:52

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No, I think the story is that the pilot was flying around in the mountains when he couldn’t see where he was going and flew into the side of a mountain. CFIT = Controlled Flight Into Terrain.

Bryant’s pilot was flying under Special VFR clearance .

ttyymmnn > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 01/26/2020 at 22:54

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It sounds like the pilot was going to follow one road then transition to another, but got lost in the transition. Again, speculation on my part. 

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 01/26/2020 at 22:56

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It allows for an aircraft to fly through IFR towards VFR conditions, as long as visibility under the clouds is over a mile. You also only need an IFR type rating if you request Special VFR at night.

With mountains and flying to an uncontrolled heliport, that’s a lot of risk to take for a non-critical mission.

facw > ttyymmnn 01/26/2020 at 23:03

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Does sound like that. Wonder if the pilot pushed it to o hard because they were running late (15 minute hold), with a VIP on board.

Seems the Special VFR for helicopters is quite permissive because they can slow down or stop and ask for guidance from the tower if they get in trouble, but if this is a CFIT situation, that didn’t happen for some reason.

RacinBob > ttyymmnn 01/26/2020 at 23:08

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But didn’t he say he was VFR (Under the clouds) and following the roads? Hence special VFR means it’s ok if you are under the cloud deck?

For Sweden > RacinBob 01/26/2020 at 23:09

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Cloud deck shrinks fast in the mountains

ttyymmnn > RacinBob 01/26/2020 at 23:12

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I think he was following the roads, and was transitioning from one road to another when he got cornered in the mountains.

WilliamsSW > For Sweden 01/26/2020 at 23:12

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It sounds like he was ( ab) using SVFR to transition from IFR to LIFR.

Why the hell not just FILE?  

WilliamsSW > For Sweden 01/26/2020 at 23:14

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Isn’t SFVR really just to transition to better conditions or, you know, land?

As opposed to using it to scud run.

For Sweden > WilliamsSW 01/26/2020 at 23:14

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Because that takes time

WilliamsSW > facw 01/26/2020 at 23:15

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SFVR is very permissive for helicopters. No minimum visibility, I believe.  

WilliamsSW > For Sweden 01/26/2020 at 23:16

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Sigh...

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 01/26/2020 at 23:17

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That is the most important point about a SVFR – always make sure you are flying towards better weather or have an escape plan. You never want to be trapped in marginal conditions.”

https://pilotworkshop.com/tips/special_vfr_clearance/

Sounds like he got trapped.

WilliamsSW > For Sweden 01/26/2020 at 23:20

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Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe he was VFR when he crashed not SFVR. He had transitioned to Socal approach and was squawking 1200.

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 01/26/2020 at 23:23

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I think there is a reasonable question as to whether he was using SVFR as it was intended. I also believe he was * not* SVFR when he crashed, but VFR. For Sweden would know for certain.

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 01/26/2020 at 23:31

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I will admit that you both know more about it than I do. Reasonable question or no, it sounds like he was flying in a place he had no business flying at the time. I was just commenting to my wife about the history of important people and plane crashes: Stevie Ray Vaughan, Buddy Holly et al, Patsy Cline, Bill Chase, Otis Redding, Audie Murphy . A ll cases of pilots who were flying in conditions they had no business flying in. Perhaps they felt under pressure by their VIP passengers. Bryant’s helo had been holding for some 15 minutes, and they were probably behind schedule. Gotta be a tough spot for a pilot, but as Dirty Harry said, “A man’s got to know his limitations.”

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 01/26/2020 at 23:39

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I was trying to be kind and non judgmental by saying “ reasonable question”.

Pressure to get there ( either from VIP pax or just a desire to get home) is a VERY real thing and a factor in countless accidents. It sounds super easy to “ just say no” for all of us on the ground ( including me) but th e number of crashes where that was a contributing factor is in the hundreds probably.

This just didn’t have to happen. So sad that 9 people are gone.

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 01/26/2020 at 23:42

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This just didn’t have to happen.

That’s what pisses me off about this. I first heard about this before an opera performance today, and the words “in flames” were thrown around. Okay, so some sort of mechanical, as odd as that sounds. Then it was “engine sputtering.” Okay, but witnesses are rarely credible in these things. But if it does turn out to be CFIT, then it’s all so dumb and unnecessary. 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > RacinBob 01/26/2020 at 23:50

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highway snakes between some steep hillsides. I f you look at the topography of the area, its a pretty dangerous area to take a wide turn or start following the wrong road.

https://goo.gl/maps/KqF4QHwXzbm1KgKG8

facw > ttyymmnn 01/26/2020 at 23:50

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It’s quite the page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatalities_from_aviation_accidents

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 01/26/2020 at 23:52

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I posted the FR24 flightpath. 

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 01/26/2020 at 23:52

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I posted the FR24 flightpath.  

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 01/26/2020 at 23:54

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It certainly sounds like CFIT, though it’s possible that it’s something else.

Either way, they’re not coming back. 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > ttyymmnn 01/26/2020 at 23:54

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the sputtering i would guess the change in sound reflecting or deflectiong off the canyan and as the helicopter approached and turned. 

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 01/26/2020 at 23:55

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Check out the flight track I just added. That last turn....

ttyymmnn > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 01/27/2020 at 00:01

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Or the rotors slapping the wind as he hauled on the collective at the last second when he saw the mountain in front of him. 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 00:07

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or the blades hitting the hillside. the debris trail on the hillside is grim

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > For Sweden 01/27/2020 at 00:16

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As well as unknown lee waves/turbulance  

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 01:04

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If it was CFIT then it's hopeful that none of the passengers had a clue...

Mercedes Streeter > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 01:07

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Previous Owner was none other than my state, used by our former governor.

https://wgntv.com/2020/01/26/kobe-bryants-helicopter-was-previously-owned-by-the-state-of-illinois/amp/

Cé hé sin > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 06:22

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Travelling in three dimensions can unfortunately do that to you. Flying’s hard.

Cé hé sin > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 06:25

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Witnesses are very likely to mention the aircraft being in flames and/ or that its engine(s) are making a funny noise. I guess it’s what they expect to happen and there’s a certain amount of wish fulfilment going on.

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 07:59

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I couldn’t make it out well enough on my phone. Will try to look at it today at work, which may not be possible.

Ash78, voting early and often > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 11:17

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I think I once read that something like 99% of all engine failure problems on a helicopter can be solved by autorotation and a (hard) landing . Unless something caught fire in flight and/or obscured the cabin with smoke, I’m voting CFIT. It’s just way too common.

ttyymmnn > Ash78, voting early and often 01/27/2020 at 11:21

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Especially in those conditions. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 11:24

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Terribly sad...

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/01/kobe-bryants-helicopter-likely-succumbed-to-common-danger.html

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 01/27/2020 at 11:24

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Holy crap that’s way too low in low visibility for comfort. Calabasas is about 1000' on average and has peaks up to 2800'

Tripper > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 11:28

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The pilot-air traffic control dialogue is amazing to me. I cannot imagine living under the pressure of being either party. It all seems so difficult and complicated, and then there are you know...people involved.

A friend of mine who was a heli pilot for the US Navy had the following to say after I told him I didn’t really like my first ride in a helicopter:

“Yeah, that’s the thing about helicopters...you never really feel that safe in them”

I agree particularly when hovering or flying slowly. I’m far less anxious when I’m going fast.

ClassicDatsunDebate > For Sweden 01/27/2020 at 11:39

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If you happened to see the photos of the crash scene just moments after, there seemed to be a lot of marine fog in the area.

ttyymmnn > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/27/2020 at 11:46

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It is sad. Entirely unnecessary. 

McMike > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 11:50

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https://youtu.be/28QYy8lrww8

Why can’t I embed in Kinja?

This is an interview with a church sound engineer with a TWA hat that gave the reporter everything except what she really wanted.

He s peaks of rotor wash, flight heading, unusual altitude, ceiling, weather, possible cause of accident, and then she asks. “What sound did the crash make?”

ttyymmnn > McMike 01/27/2020 at 11:55

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gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 12:22

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Surprised to learn you can be a commercial pilot and not need an ifr rating. As I was thinking before bed, why fly over 5 different airports, when he could have bypassed all of them by swinging by Catalina  island.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 13:11

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Who dropped the ball the hardest? The pilot, for continuing on in what were clearly challenging conditions? Control, for giving him permission? Honestly, I hope it doesn’t come out that Kobe pushed that they go ahead despite the bad conditions...

ttyymmnn > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 01/27/2020 at 14:05

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Because the ceiling was too low, he wasn’t IFR rated (I think), so he could easily have gotten lost over the ocean. It’s my understanding that helo pilots often follow roads to get where they’re going. Many years ago, an Army chopper came to our college campus. I noticed a Rand McNally in the cockpit and asked about it. He said, “We just followed I-66 from DC  down to I-81 to get here.”

ttyymmnn > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/27/2020 at 14:08

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I believe it’s all on the pilot. ATC can’t see what he is seeing. If he tells them that SVFR is working for him (or doesn’t report that it isn’t), then they take him at his word.  The ultimate decision to fly or not to fly rests with the PIC, but he may fear losing his job if he doesn’t go. It’s a tough position to be in. That said, LA County police had grounded their choppers yesterday.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 14:35

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Yup. Definitely high pressure to say “no” to the boss when he needs to be somewhere and they’re already running late. I’d assume it’s not the first time they’d done it in similar conditions, but got “lucky” the other times.

Ugh... that last detail.

Having the kids on board should’ve definitely swayed this decision to err on the side of safety.

ttyymmnn > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/27/2020 at 14:37

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I just read that the pilot did in fact have an IFR rating. Still, you gotta know your limits. Hubris has crashed more than a few airplanes too. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 14:48

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... IFR, that would have allowed him to climb up through the clouds. Controllers would have given him a series of waypoints to follow that would keep him well clear of terrain, dangerous weather, and other aircraft. Flying IFR, however, is time-consuming and constrains pilots to following the directions of controllers. “Southern California airspace is extremely busy, and they might tell you to wait an hour,” assistant professor of aviation at the City University of New York Paul Cline told me. “You’re just one of many waiting in line, and it doesn’t matter if you’re Kobe Bryant.”

Pride can definitely get in the way of judgement. Maybe he’d never gotten his boss to his destination late, and he didn’t want to tarnish that record...

ttyymmnn > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/27/2020 at 14:50

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Or, despite his ratings, he just got horribly disoriented. That can happen to the best pilots. 

DipodomysDeserti > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 20:31

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Not sure if you’ve read up on the pilot, but it sounds like he was one of the most respected in the area and not at all worried about risking his life for a job. His friends are encouraging people not to play armchair quarterback, especially if they didn’t know the guy.

ttyymmnn > DipodomysDeserti 01/27/2020 at 21:17

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That’s certainly fair. I never meant to impugn his capabilities .

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > ttyymmnn 01/27/2020 at 22:34

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I think he was seasoned with ifr qualifications. shame trying to make up time

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ttyymmnn 02/03/2020 at 12:52

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He had the rating, but likely wasn’t current— His employer’s charter service was VFR-only, so he wasn’t getting much time in on IFR. There’s been some debate over on PPRUNE as to whether he even needed to do check rides. Strangely, he was a Rotor IFR INSTRUCTOR, who probably wasn’t proficient.

I drove through there about 45 minutes prior to the crash that day. Fog on the Oxnard plain, low-lying marine layer mist on the Conejo Pass... and low ceiling. I have no idea why they even left SNA that day, much less how they expected to be able complete the flight VFR. None of it makes sense. Given the sheer number of marine-layer days? I have no idea how you can run reliable charters like this...

Ironically, of course, since they were supposed to meet the car service at Camarillo Airport...  If he was just flying a PC12 it would have been fine.  None of it makes sense-- clearly the wrong tool, with the wrong operator, for the job

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ttyymmnn 02/03/2020 at 13:10

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He had a rating, but never actually FLEW IFR. Not a great way to keep proficient.

It’s still not clear to me how a Part 135 Air Charter Service can operate in the LA Basin for years while never utilizing IFR flight.  On the one hand it gives great client satisfaction to be able to go wherever, whenever.  On the other hand... conditions can often be not conducive to VFR flight here in SoCal.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ttyymmnn 02/03/2020 at 13:15

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Dunno. The more this plays out, the clearer it appears that, at minimum, pilot judgment will be fair game here. Camarillo was reporting 1.5 miles with 1500 feet ceiling when they left SNA.

I wondering if he thought he could get out of the crud (seeing fog in Conejo Pass) by crossing 101 and heading down into Malibu Canyon. There’d be no other reason for him to have a 18 0 heading over Las Virgenes Road, unless he thought he could beat the weather that way.

None of it makes sense once he left VNY-controlled space.

ttyymmnn > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/03/2020 at 13:21

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How much pressure to get there by VIP passenger?

ttyymmnn > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/03/2020 at 13:23

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I read that not even the LAPD has IFR rating. Then again, not much aerial observation to be carried out in IFR.

ttyymmnn > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/03/2020 at 13:25

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The news is making hay out of the fact that his company didn’t have IFR rating. It is my understanding that even if he had wanted to go IFR he would have had to file, but that he couldn’t because his company couldn’t. 

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ttyymmnn 02/03/2020 at 13:30

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Yeah, it’s spooky at night to see the LAPD choppers, spotlights ablaze, circling over some perp pinned down on the ground. They probably don’t have much reason to fly when they can’t see.

I’m assuming Kobe “sold back” his private helicopter once he retired and didn’t need it to commute to games from the OC anymore. That’s probably a factor here— Newport Beach to DTLA is much, much more likely to be clear pathway, assuming the ceiling/visibility was good enough to lift off at SNA. Once they needed to commute to T/O, Newbury Park and Camarillo?  Totally different deal.  Coastal fog is a big consideration out there.  Last Sunday was “odd” weather too.   I drove through about 45 minutes before the crash and it was the trifecta of bad visibility.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ttyymmnn 02/03/2020 at 13:41

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Exactly. Not a good environment to stay proficient, either.

There’s a lot of “partially correct, but wildly flawed” stuff out there. Juan Brown’s Blancolirio (SP?) YT channel had a very, very knowledgeable experienced helicopter pilot up the other day (I can only take Juan in limited doses— he said some nutty stuff about the MAX over the months, stuff that to this aerospace engineer was just indefensible, which he’s slowly walked back as he’s gotten more informed).

The guy had great insight into the strong (and weak) points of the S-76b.

Of course, by the end, they were making wild assumptions about the destination, by implying the trip was to Newbury Park. There’s no pad up at the Academy... they always had to commute to Camarillo and finish the trip by car.

The irony, since this was all done on a Sunday morning... and traffic was very light...  The could have done a door-to-door trip in only 1 hour 20 minutes by car only.  Allowing for all the transit and wait to SNA, the load and backtrack from Camarillo, plus 20 minutes of holding to cross VNY and BUR airspace?    The whole trip should have been done by car service, since it was Sunday.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/03/2020 at 13:44

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The company?  For not having guidelines that would have kept the chopper on the ground if there wasn’t uniformly clear weather along the COMPLETE path of flight.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ttyymmnn 02/03/2020 at 13:49

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Some, probably, implied. I sorta blame the company, too, for not having firm guidelines about departing, with VFR only operations, in conditions that weren’t VFR.

Hell, conditions at BUR were so bad (complicating matters) that they had TWO go-around 737s they were juggling in the pattern, who’d shot approaches but couldn’t see the field. That’s part of the reason for the long “hold” over Glendale.  None of this makes any sense.

ATC is always the height of professionalism, but they must get exasperated with these “special helicopters” transiting the airspace when the controllers are playing Aluminum Tetris trying to get airliners in and out.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/03/2020 at 13:53

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Yeah, for sure. When I wrote that, I was under the assumption that he was Kobe’s personal pilot flying his personal helicopter.